Curse

poiu · Oct 18, 2006, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Ok, I am writing this post and probably i will quit replying on this topic. Once again: it is stupid. This is not one v/s one game, this is TEAM GAME. I will not talk with examples because have no time and this will be really enormous reply, but:
Just look at the skills of eles. Although the warriors beat them in dps, the eles HAVE skills that can achieve very fast kills. If I am not concerned about the energy /as the warriors are/ I can kill an enemy faster than them. But then what>having no energy>useless for the team. That's why I think that most people writing in this topic misunderstand the game and its concept. It is no about sucking, it is about usefulness and the tactic team work.

LightningHell · Oct 18, 2006, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by poiu

Ok, I am writing this post and probably i will quit replying on this topic. Once again: it is stupid. This is not one v/s one game, this is TEAM GAME. I will not talk with examples because have no time and this will be really enormous reply, but:
Just look at the skills of eles. Although the warriors beat them in dps, the eles HAVE skills that can achieve very fast kills. If I am not concerned about the energy /as the warriors are/ I can kill an enemy faster than them. But then what>having no energy>useless for the team. That's why I think that most people writing in this topic misunderstand the game and its concept. It is no about sucking, it is about usefulness and the tactic team work.

We are talking about teamwork here. While (talking in PvP) you can present a respectable threat as a Warrior, people will laugh at your face if you pick an elementalist to do that job. A team of Warriors are far more frightening than a band of Elementalists, unless they huddle in wards, use Heal Area (fine maybe not), and Obsflame spike.

EDIT: Looking at your post more carefully, I think you miss one point about Warriors - Adrenaline.

TLLOTS · Oct 18, 2006, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Umm lemme think....yes! There seems to be an awful lot of bad feeling towards elementalists...except by those people who play one well and know what they are capable of.

Unfortunately you're wrong. I actually played an Elementalist exclusively since the early beta's up until a few months ago when I read a certain eye opening thread. In the interest of educating myself I made a Warrior, and after playing through the game and then progressing to PvP with them, I could never even consider bringing an Elementalist for damage anymore, I'd just feel far too ineffective by comparison. Through all the builds I've played in numerous different places, PvE and PvP, be it focused on fire, air, water or earth; the most useful I've ever felt as an elementalist since making my warrior can be sumarised as follows:

Ether Prodigy > Heal Party > Heal Party > Heal Party...

I play Elementalists, I play them well, and I know what they're capable of. Believe me when I say, Elementalists suck as damage dealers.

XvArchonvX · Oct 18, 2006, 01:21 PM // 13:21

I wouldn't argue warrors to be better at damage dealing than Elementalists in PvE because quite simply it's Apples to Oranges. Warriors to single target damage best and eles do AoE damage best. Circumstance determines which member throws up more yellow numbers.

A viable comparison would be Eles to SS or Barrage Rangers. Quite frankly Eles will often fall behind in this competition, especially if this takes place against high level enemies. While barrage rangers are subject to lesser damage against high al enemies, their spamability is still the most reliable and damage bonuses from Fav Winds, Vamp Bow strings, and possibly Orders if they can get it can still keep them ahead. Necro's ability to do armor ignoring damage makes them very viable for obvious reasons.

Personally I would like to see a legitamate buff to Ele's damage output, especially in the Earth Magic line (sure they have some strong defense skills, but enchant reliant defenses are like glass vases on high, unstable shelves).

Cebe · Oct 18, 2006, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

A viable comparison would be Eles to SS or Barrage Rangers. Quite frankly Eles will often fall behind in this competition, especially if this takes place against high level enemies.

I'm confused. Not that I'm saying you're wrong, I just don't understand what you are getting at...

When I look at comparing my Elementalist with my Necromancer and my Ranger I get these:

Elementalist:
I can cast Deep Freeze and inflict up to 85 damage on foes in an area and have them slowed down for 10 seconds.
I can follow that with a Maelstrom which inflicts up to 25 damage on foes within the area for 10 seconds (up to 250 damage).
I can cast Chain Lightning on 3 foes and cause up to 90 damage each.

Necromancer:
I can cast Spiteful Spirit on a foe and, assuming they cast skills at a reasonable pace...and don't die too fast, that will inflict 35 damage. In my experience foes tend to get killed by someone else before they manage to fire off more than about 2 skills.

Ranger:
I can use Barrage on up to 6 foes, if I combine that with Favorable Winds then that gives up to 15 damage + another 6 from the Favorable Winds giving anything up to 21 damage. Barrage, obviously can be used pretty much every second.

So, looking at those figures, in order for the Spiteful Spirit to equal the Deep Freeze the foe would have to use a skill more than twice before they died. The ranger would have to use Barrage up to 4 times to equal the damage dealt by Deep Freeze. I accept Deep Freeze has a 3-second cast time, but this cast time is still less than the ranger's 4 barrages. I may be misunderstanding Barrage...I have got a ranger through the game but I never enjoyed playing it much...so I'm sure people will not hesitate to correct me if I am wrong.

Please note Deep Freeze was only an example. I'm sure there will be mobs out there which will have insane armor vs Cold damage...in which case...substitute any other similar ele skill. Personally I prefer Chain Lightning since most of the time I go air. I think I prefer the armor penetration which means I can take out a warrior quite quickly. Also my air skills are very spammable...I use Lightning Strike, Enervating Charge, Lightning Hammer, Lightning Orb and Chain Lightning...with dual attunements and aura of restoration. Providing I maintain the attunements I can fire of the skills continuously and fast.

I'm sure you'll want to start tearing me to pieces now so go right ahead!

poiu · Oct 18, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Looking at your post more carefully, I think you miss one point about Warriors - Adrenaline.

Adrenaline can be build easily with several skills that warriors possess - e.g. dragon slash, skills buffing the attack speed... not to mention the new shouts of the paragons coming with NF. And once adrenalin is built it vanishes hardly.
This is my point: Give similar non elite skills to eles for energy management and we will talk again for damage dealers. But as people say: The game must be balanced

One more thing which people with the "sucking" statements do not understand.

LightningHell · Oct 18, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I'm confused. Not that I'm saying you're wrong, I just don't understand what you are getting at...

When I look at comparing my Elementalist with my Necromancer and my Ranger I get these:

Elementalist:
I can cast Deep Freeze and inflict up to 85 damage on foes in an area and have them slowed down for 10 seconds.
I can follow that with a Maelstrom which inflicts up to 25 damage on foes within the area for 10 seconds (up to 250 damage).
I can cast Chain Lightning on 3 foes and cause up to 90 damage each.

Necromancer:
I can cast Spiteful Spirit on a foe and, assuming they cast skills at a reasonable pace...and don't die too fast, that will inflict 35 damage. In my experience foes tend to get killed by someone else before they manage to fire off more than about 2 skills.

Ranger:
I can use Barrage on up to 6 foes, if I combine that with Favorable Winds then that gives up to 15 damage + another 6 from the Favorable Winds giving anything up to 21 damage. Barrage, obviously can be used pretty much every second.

So, looking at those figures, in order for the Spiteful Spirit to equal the Deep Freeze the foe would have to use a skill more than twice before they died. The ranger would have to use Barrage up to 4 times to equal the damage dealt by Deep Freeze. I accept Deep Freeze has a 3-second cast time, but this cast time is still less than the ranger's 4 barrages. I may be misunderstanding Barrage...I have got a ranger through the game but I never enjoyed playing it much...so I'm sure people will not hesitate to correct me if I am wrong.

Look at the recharges.

Cebe · Oct 18, 2006, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Look at the recharges.

Granted, the recharges on the skills I listed may be...reasonably high...but I would be a very bad elementalist if I did not bring anything but Deep Freeze now wouldn't I? Perhaps I should have pointed out that these would (obviously) need to be mixed with spammable skills. If we run with the water theme we could look at Ice Spear...mine does anything up to 70 damage and only has a 1 second recharge. It may not affect multiple foes but it does a great deal of damage to one...

This is generally how I work with air magic. I personally do not like Area of Effect too much...too greater risk of enemies running out of it... How I make air work is pummel the crap outta one foe...move onto the next...and the next... They go down fast. With dual attunements I lose very little energy and as I have already pointed out...my air build is such that when I have worked my way along my line of skills, the earlier ones have already recharged. I rarely have to wait for my skills to recharge.

Edit: Also, Barrage was the only skill there that would be parmanently spammable...providing the energy didn't run out. If we compare the 15 second recharge of Deep Freeze with the 10 second recharge of Spiteful Spirit then there isn't a great deal of difference...and of you went /Me both can easily be echoed... Difference is with dual attunements an Elementalist would expel 25 energy on Arcane Echo and 2 × Deep Freeze, a Necromancer would expel 45 energy.

Sable Phoenix · Oct 18, 2006, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Granted, the recharges on the skills I listed may be...reasonably high...but I would be a very bad elementalist if I did not bring anything but Deep Freeze now wouldn't I? Perhaps I should have pointed out that these would (obviously) need to be mixed with spammable skills. If we run with the water theme we could look at Ice Spear...mine does anything up to 70 damage and only has a 1 second recharge. It may not affect multiple foes but it does a great deal of damage to one...

This is generally how I work with air magic. I personally do not like Area of Effect too much...too greater risk of enemies running out of it... How I make air work is pummel the crap outta one foe...move onto the next...and the next... They go down fast. With dual attunements I lose very little energy and as I have already pointed out...my air build is such that when I have worked my way along my line of skills, the earlier ones have already recharged. I rarely have to wait for my skills to recharge.

Edit: Also, Barrage was the only skill there that would be parmanently spammable...providing the energy didn't run out. If we compare the 15 second recharge of Deep Freeze with the 10 second recharge of Spiteful Spirit then there isn't a great deal of difference...and of you went /Me both can easily be echoed...

If that's how you work an Elementalist, I guarantee you, absolutely one-hundred-percent guarantee you, that my Mesmer will bring down that same enemy three times faster. I can bring down level 24 enemies with one cycle through my skill bar, and not even the full skill bar at that. Show me a single Elementalist build that can do that.

Yes, Elementalists are underpowered. Between their ridiculous recharge times, severe energy management issues (you yourself use dual attunements, as does almost every viable Elementalist build), primary attribute which barely helps them, relatively low DPS compared to almost any other class, and dependence on easily stripped and slowly recharging enchantments, they are relegated to a utility snare spammer as their only truly viable "role".

Cebe · Oct 18, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sable Phoenix

If that's how you work an Elementalist, I guarantee you, absolutely one-hundred-percent guarantee you, that my Mesmer will bring down that same enemy three times faster. I can bring down level 24 enemies with one cycle through my skill bar, and not even the full skill bar at that. Show me a single Elementalist build that can do that.

Umm, not sure I ever mentioned that I needed to work more than once through my skillbar! Incidentally, I know how good Mesmers are...I use one myself, they are awesome!

Thomas.knbk · Oct 18, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I'm confused. Not that I'm saying you're wrong, I just don't understand what you are getting at...

When I look at comparing my Elementalist with my Necromancer and my Ranger I get these:

Elementalist:
I can cast Deep Freeze and inflict up to 85 damage on foes in an area and have them slowed down for 10 seconds.
I can follow that with a Maelstrom which inflicts up to 25 damage on foes within the area for 10 seconds (up to 250 damage).
I can cast Chain Lightning on 3 foes and cause up to 90 damage each.

So you have spent 60 energy and 20 points of exausthion?
Noone is stupid enough to stand in your maelstorm for 10 seconds, and the times that you're going to hit 2 foes with CL are rare.
Compare that to an evis/exe warrior under Frenzy, who has a ~250dmg spike every 7 seconds and a nice DPS in the meantime.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 18, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sable Phoenix

Yes, Elementalists are underpowered. Between their ridiculous recharge times, severe energy management issues (you yourself use dual attunements, as does almost every viable Elementalist build), primary attribute which barely helps them, relatively low DPS compared to almost any other class, and dependence on easily stripped and slowly recharging enchantments, they are relegated to a utility snare spammer as their only truly viable "role".

Elementalists are not underpowered. I repeat, they're not underpowered. They're just underpowered as pure dmg dealers, but they make the best flag runners and utility/HP spammers. About your dual attunements, tell that our top guilds. You see that line about halfway the page? "26 Unique Elite skills were used, the most popular being Ether Prodigy which was slotted 27 times"

Cebe · Oct 18, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

So you have spent 60 energy and 20 points of exausthion?
Noone is stupid enough to stand in your maelstorm for 10 seconds, and the times that you're going to hit 2 foes with CL are rare.

Someone didn't read much else. I'm seeing the words "dual attunements" spring up there quite a lot (that would be 12 energy output...not 60). Also, I have already pointed out that they were only examples, I would never dream of using that combination of skills...and also, to get that much damage out of both water and air skills at the same time you would have approximately 3 attribute points in energy storage! That's not even mentioning the -105HP from the runes (superior Air and Major Water)!

They were purely for illustrative purposes...so sorry for any confusion there. I find it funny you think my build would consist of pretty much just those 3 skills! Also, I can assure you that 90% of the time, when it comes to having chain lightning hit 3 foes, I do not miss. When I use Barrage on my ranger it is very difficult to have all 6 arrows hit 6 foes...they can dodge them or I can just miss...

Anyway, I'm kind of tired ot this debate you'll be glad to know...It seems that you've all decided that an elementalist is not an appropriate profession to have in a team... No doubt I'll be back in a few months with another "OMG is this still here" post! Good luck all!

Sable Phoenix · Oct 18, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Elementalists are not underpowered. I repeat, they're not underpowered. They're just underpowered as pure dmg dealers, but they make the best flag runners and utility/HP spammers. About your dual attunements, tell that our top guilds. You see that line about halfway the page? "26 Unique Elite skills were used, the most popular being Ether Prodigy which was slotted 27 times"

Trying to use specific PVP examples to say that the class isn't underpowered doesn't really work. You can always find one place where a particular class will function well. The question is whether it also function well generally. For the Elementalist, the answer is no. Almost anything an Elementalist can do another class can do better, and in PVE flag running is pointless and utility is only marginally and situationally useful.

Ether Prodigy is obviously part of a very specific build which the team is designed to handle; it's worse than useless in PVE. In fact, I can truthfully say I've never seen anyone use it. Every Elementalist I see uses attunements, including me.

Skuld · Oct 18, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Mesmers and necros are largely useless in pve, because they contribute very, very little to teams.

This is untrue, for the necro part anyway. Minion masters are rampant!

Blackhawk · Oct 18, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

This is untrue, for the necro part anyway. Minion masters are rampant!

Agreed, try getting in a team for Tombs as an Ele and then go back as a Minion Master

XvArchonvX · Oct 18, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Elementalist:
I can cast Deep Freeze and inflict up to 85 damage on foes in an area and have them slowed down for 10 seconds.

Key word in that sentence is "up to". In most high level situations you will do closer to half or 3/4 of that damage. Damage from SS on the other hand will do 37 damage each time that enemy perform an action meaning that 3 swipes of a sword will do over 100 armor ignoring damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I can follow that with a Maelstrom which inflicts up to 25 damage on foes within the area for 10 seconds (up to 250 damage).

Maelstrom will cause enemies to flee in PvE, which while having the possibility to be used to your advantage, does not work when your intention is to cause damage. Even if the foes are snared, they will not stay in the Maelstrom for long and they won't be interupted from casting since they will be fleeing. Again "up to" 25 damage does not mean 25 damage. SS and Barrage can do more damage than that and will not cause grouped enemies to scatter. Since being able to do AoE damage is based on keeping enemies concentrated all together, scattered enemies is the last thing you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I can cast Chain Lightning on 3 foes and cause up to 90 damage each.

Compare this "up to" 90 damage and restriction to 3 enemies at the cost of Exhaustion to the unlimited damage from a single foe with SS on them attacking 3 times and doin equal damage to all surrounding foes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Necromancer:
I can cast Spiteful Spirit on a foe and, assuming they cast skills at a reasonable pace...and don't die too fast, that will inflict 35 damage. In my experience foes tend to get killed by someone else before they manage to fire off more than about 2 skills.

A good necro will have 16 att in curses which interperets to 37 (or up to 39 damage if they have a +1 curses 20% weapon). Also the 15 second recharge of SS allows it to be recast relatively quickly. While some enemies may only use 2 skills, they will often attack more than 2 times. Since most SS also go N/Me and echo SS, they can double their damage easily and foes that die quickly keep the necro recharged so that they can continue to cast without fear of low energy or fear of overexhaustion. Ability to last through long battles with constant waves of enemies is just as important as being able to take them down quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Ranger:
I can use Barrage on up to 6 foes, if I combine that with Favorable Winds then that gives up to 15 damage + another 6 from the Favorable Winds giving anything up to 21 damage. Barrage, obviously can be used pretty much every second.

I think your numbers are flawed here as well. A good barrage ranger will use 16 attributes in Marks which means they get a 16 armor ignoring damage bonus from each arrow. What you have failed to take into account is that this bonus is in addition to the normal damage of the arrow itself. Also a vampiric mod is available to do another 5 damage from each arrow. Using a +15%^50 customized bow against a 100 AL target will do between about 12-31 per arrow.

This means that in a worst case scenario, one arrow will do 12 (arrow damage) + 16 (barrage bonus) + 5 (vamp damage) + 6 (fav. winds bonus) = 39 damage per arrow.

In a best case scenario you will do 31 (arrow damage) + 16 (barrage bonus) + 5 (vamp damage) + 6 (fav. winds bonus) = 42 damage per arrow.

If you are using a Flatbow as a good barrage ranger should, you do this damage every 2 seconds at a greater possible range than a caster can. Since this is not a spell, it is also less succeptible to interuption and only costs 5 energy for each shot (which is technically 3 energy for a ranger at 9 expertise or 2 energy if expertise is 13 or greater).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

So, looking at those figures, in order for the Spiteful Spirit to equal the Deep Freeze the foe would have to use a skill more than twice before they died.

no, they only have to attack twice and unless you are doing Minister Ch

o's Estate with a full party of lvl 20s, your foe should be able to attack at least twice.

The ranger would have to use Barrage up to 4 times to equal the damage dealt by Deep Freeze. I accept Deep Freeze has a 3-second cast time, but this cast time is still less than the ranger's 4 barrages. I may be misunderstanding Barrage...I have got a ranger through the game but I never enjoyed playing it much...so I'm sure people will not hesitate to correct me if I am wrong.[/QUOTE]
Assuming you do the full 85 damage to an enemy, a barrage ranger doing a minimum of 39 damage will do more damage in 3 shots with almost no cost to energy and will be able to take on the next set of enemies without the setback of recharge time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Please note Deep Freeze was only an example. I'm sure there will be mobs out there which will have insane armor vs Cold damage...in which case...substitute any other similar ele skill. Personally I prefer Chain Lightning since most of the time I go air. I think I prefer the armor penetration which means I can take out a warrior quite quickly. Also my air skills are very spammable...I use Lightning Strike, Enervating Charge, Lightning Hammer, Lightning Orb and Chain Lightning...with dual attunements and aura of restoration. Providing I maintain the attunements I can fire of the skills continuously and fast.

I love going as an air spiker as well, but the damage is mostly single target, so a comparison of a single target strategy to an AoE strategy isn't really fair since they are based on situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I'm sure you'll want to start tearing me to pieces now so go right ahead!

RAWR!!

lol, seriously though, my point is that even though in a best case scenario an ele might be able to match or possibly exceed a SS or Barrage ranger, they will not be able to provide the same consistancy that they can. There are reasons that people stopped taking nukers and started taking SS when they went on 5-man SF runs back in the day as well as why people often take Barrage/Pet as 5-man teams as well.

Ensign · Oct 18, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

You're neglecting base arrow damage on Barrage. Barrage hits for 50, not 20. It also gets to come out every other shot at worst, which is pretty awesome.

Physical attackers are beaters. They deal damage with every single attack, and they get to stack other effects on top of it. Casters, each spell is a much higher investment, and the ones that just beat on something are generally not priced competitively with physical beaters. But that's not the point, the value of caster spells is that they can have larger and wider effects than physical attacks.

So eles are not supposed to be beaters. They provide these utility roles, and toss in situational DDs. They aren't primary offense, they're supplemental offense on a platform that does other jobs.

Regarding Spiteful Spirit - it's weak because of how much it has to trigger in PvE to be effective. It's a high investment skill, and unless the victim it given time to make it work you're better off just throwing a DD.

Peace,
-CxE

SnipiousMax · Oct 18, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It also gets to come out every other shot at worst, which is pretty awesome.

Even with a flatbow/shortbow while under a speed buff, you really only get 1 shot in 10 that sneaks inbetween barrages.

Ensign · Oct 18, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

That's if you're purposefully slowing down your fire to make sure that every attack is a Barrage. Against all but the tightest of mobs it makes sense to stagger your Barrages to every other attack, to maximize single target DPS while still getting Barrages off nearly as frequently.

Peace,
-CxE